Examining the End of Tourism with Chris Christou

In this season of The RISE Traveler, Dr. Vincie Ho, Founder and Executive Director of The RISE Travel Institute, will be interviewing influential justice activists and thought leaders in conscious travel. She will be going beyond the idea of “sustainable travel” to dive deeper into what that really means for those who are looking to travel responsibly. 

To kick off the season, Vincie engages in a conversation with Chris Christou, a writer, storyteller, educational curator, and culture activist. Chris is the host of the End of Tourism podcast, which explores wanderlust, exile, and radical hospitality.

During their discussion, Chris delves into topics covered on his podcast, drawing from his experiences in both his native Canada and his home for nearly a decade, Oaxaca, Mexico. With extensive involvement in the service industry from both provider and tourist perspectives, Chris offers a unique viewpoint on the community impact of tourism. He also discusses concepts such as radical hospitality and decolonizing travel, providing fresh insights into the tourism industry and redefining travel and mobility paradigms.

Host: Dr. Vincie Ho - Founder and Executive Director of The RISE Travel Institute
Video and Audio Editing: Kate Mulvihill - Video and Podcast Producer at The RISE Travel Institute
Graphic Design: Shirley Wong - Freelance Art Director
Music: "On My Way" Kevin MacLeod (License) 

Transcript

Intro:
Hello! Wherever you are in the world today, thank you for joining us for The RISE Traveler: Unpacking Conversations of Sustainable Travel. We’re here to move a step beyond the “Instagram ready” world of travel and think critically and deeply about how travel can uplift global communities, protect natural ecosystems, and be a source of growth for travelers.

Here at RISE Travel Institute we are committed to empowering travelers and travel professionals through education. Our programs, research, Experiential Journeys, scholarships, and free resources are all aimed at bringing you closer to a more responsible and ethical travel experience. Learn more by visiting RISETravelInstitute.org.

Dr. Vincie Ho   
So welcome to RISE Travel Institute's podcast, The RISE Traveler unpacking conversations of sustainable travel. I’m Vincie Ho, the guest host for season four. In this special season, we will be talking to Critical Theory scholars, activists and leaders in sustainability, and social and environmental justices in the travel and tourism space. And together, we'll delve into the aspects of travel and discuss some of the pressing issues that are impacting communities at travel destinations around the world. So today, I'm very excited to have Chris Christou, writer, storyteller, educational curator, and culture activist. He's the host of the End of Tourism podcast. So far, he has produced five seasons and close to 50 episodes, more or less. 

And Chris uses his podcast as a platform for deep conversations on what people usually don't think about when they think about travel. Some of the topics include, but are not limited to, exile and migration, wonderlust and hypermobility, sustainability and greenwashing, extractive economic and degrowth, colonialism and decoloniality, radical hospitality and much more. First, I'm personally a huge fan of this podcast. And when I was first introduced to it, I was immediately hooked by the name of the podcast, and was expecting to hear a critical discussion about and around tourism issues. And I was not disappointed. So it's also the founder of Oaxaca Profondo, translated as Deep Mexico in English, a project that aims at honoring the diversity of culture, stories, and the likelihood of locals that have been threatened by the dominant colonial representation or singular narrative of the place, the Project Connect traveler and student groups, with locals, providing travelers with the opportunity to experience the local cultures and learn from the local, always through a decolonial lens. So Chris, thank you so much for being our first guest for season four of the RISE Traveler podcast, it is such an honor to have you with us today.

Chris Christou   
Thank you Vincie for the invitation. I'm grateful to be here and to be able to speak with you and your people.

Dr. Vincie Ho   
Thank you. So before we dive deeply into ethical issues around travel and tourism, that we both are so passionate about, could you please share with us a little bit about who you are? If I've missed anything in the intro, where are you currently based? What brought you there in the first place? And what is your relationship with the land where you live now?

Chris Christou   
Mm hmm. Yeah, great question. So I am currently… currently. I live in Oaxaca, Mexico, just outside of the city, the capital, about 30 minutes outside and in a small town in a village here. And I've been living here for the better part of a decade now. It's kind of a long convoluted story, but you know, the short of it is that in my 20s, I became a kind of semi-permanent backpacker, kinda part time tourist. I caught the travel bug. Wonderlust. There was a great deal of escapism growing up in Toronto, Canada in a big metropolitan city. And just seeing you know, things change very quickly in my adolescence and, and also kind of carrying a fairly large degree of alienation or loneliness, perhaps. And so I decided kind of on a whim to travel, to start traveling. And as soon as I, you know, was abroad internationally for the first time, I fell in love with travel. With what I perhaps didn't quite understand at the time was tourism. And my life ended up becoming this kind of wanderlust. This cycle of wanderlust where I would work seasonally in Toronto for as long not for as long as I could, but as much as I could, in order to save as much money as I could in order to travel for as long as I could, and then basically repeating that process over and over and over again. 

And, you know, after a couple of years, that kind of superficial tourism or travel gave way to kind of like, well, I want to learn, I want to learn about other cultures. And, you know, at the end of maybe seven or eight years, I started asking myself, what I was doing with my life, because it just kind of revolved around this cycle of what I realized later was always wanting to be elsewhere. Essentially not wanting to be in Toronto or not wanting to be at home. And so I decided that I would move somewhere, and that I would plant myself in that place, wherever it might be. And I had a long list of places because I had met so many people around the world, and in that decade. I kind of came down to Oaxaca on a whim, without really any reason for why this place. And after about six months here, I just realized that I needed to stop wanting to be everywhere, or wanting to be anywhere. And at some point in that journey, when I landed in Oaxaca, I knew I wanted to write a travel book, or a book on travel. And I just knew that I didn't want it to be another travelogue. Right, I didn't want it to be about me. You know, there's so many of those in the world, why not do something that's maybe more needed, perhaps. So at the time, I began researching the history of tourism, the history of modern travel, and doing research for that manuscript for that book. And in that research over the course of those years, you know, maybe four or five years doing that research, I came to understand that there were social movements all over the world, that were local social movements, localized social movements that were fighting for particular causes, could have been could be environmental in terms of maybe the pollution or contamination of waterways, the building of a new airport, excuse me, and it could have been economic factors, gentrification, for example. And so, but what I realized was that at the center of all of these movements was tourism. And they weren't either vocally or directly anti-tourism. But tourism was the thing that bound them together. 

And so I wondered, you know, how could it be that we might be able to find a way to amplify those voices, the voices that are often only heard in the neighborhoods or in the cities of individual peoples, or communities or social movements, amplify them and even start creating networks, between those communities, and as well, offering travelers and tourists and expats and digital nomads and migrants and traveling people, deeper aperture into the nature and history and consequences of our, of our worldly movements. 

And so that's what happened. And it was, you know, strangely enough in January 2020, when that decision was made to come in to start a podcast, this is what it's going to be about. And in part because of the kind of looming overtourism that was beginning in Oaxaca. And then, yeah, there was a global shutdown, of course, of tourism and travel in March of 2020. And in September 2020, the podcast was launched to great fanfare and controversy, as one might imagine. And yeah, so it's been this incredible journey, to wonder aloud with people, activists within social movements, academics, you know, who were certainly more at the heart of the critical theory and critical lenses around tourism. Unfortunately, that's where it often gets stuck. There's really often no avenue in which the general public can understand these, these histories and consequences because so much of it is locked behind university paywalls and things like that. So, activists, academics, and then of course, you know, people in the neighborhood, people in overtouristed communities, cities, etc. And so yeah, it's been, I guess, three years now, just under three years and five seasons, and I've learned an incredible amount. 

Dr. Vincie Ho   
I’ve learned an incredible amount too, you know, from your episode. Thank you. Yeah. So like, your personal trajectory is fascinating. And I think it definitely resonates with a lot of us who all like to develop, very, very early on a passion for travel. But a lot of people would just kind of stop there and like, continue to want to travel without this reflection in terms of, you know, what's going on, at the places they travel to? And how do people live and all these social movements and social and justices that people are fighting for.

Chris Christou   
I like to interrupt you just for a second, if I may, because there's something important there that, you know, I left that, which was that, when I moved to Oaxaca, I began working in the tourist industry. And so I began to see from that side, not just a local foreigner, I know that's paradoxical, and, you know, but, but someone who is now embedded on the serving side of an industry that I was always on the receiving end of. And that so that really opened my eyes to all of the things that I couldn't see all of the ways in which I was a tourist, as a backpacker, that was completely alien to me, that I was completely oblivious to. 

And I think, in part because with most travel, modern travel, most tourism specifically is that we're only in a place long enough to kind of get what we can out of it, right? It's this extractive feeling, or, you know, whether it's intentional or not, usually it isn't. So there's a degree of ignorance there. But we're almost never in places long enough to actually see our consequences in them rolling out. Right. And so that's what I began to see, really, for the first time after a decade of being on the receiving end of that hospitality. And so, I just wanted to mention that, because that's also a big part of how the podcast got started.

Dr. Vincie Ho   
Gotcha. Thank you. Yeah, I think that that probably has that experience on the serving end has probably informed you about what you were not able to see as a traveler. And that is the case of a lot of travelers who, who got bitten by this travel bug and one just wants to keep traveling forever. And not having that perspective, you know, from the other side of the industry and looking at how things are done and what tourism has impacted you know, places around the world and communities around the world. So well thank you for that. Fascinating, I can relate a lot like I personally when I was in my 20s also kind of the same as a lot of travelers they would always think about like what they get, you know, what is there for them right? Like what travel brings to them but not really thinking about the consequences or like not seeing the consequences, or long term consequences that you talked about just now. 

So tell us a little bit more about the End of Tourism podcast. What were you thinking when you pick the name for the podcast and does it mean… does it mark the end of your era as a traveler, always wandering, always traveling non stop? Or like what what other meanings does it carry and what do you want to achieve with the podcast, what are some objectives? Like, what do you want this podcast to contribute to the world?

Chris Christou   
Again, great question. So, if the name was chosen, I'm really bad with, you know, it's kind of like reductionist understandings of a particular thing. So finding a name was very difficult for me. But, of course, you know, I wanted something provocative, something kind of also blurry or open ended enough that people could, you know, wonder themselves about what that could mean. Not just coming from me, but what that might mean for them, what that might mean for local people, what that might mean for an industry, etc, etc. 

And I kind of base it off. Fukuyama’s The End of History, right? It was kind of this, this book, and this concept that came out, you know, maybe 20 or 30 years ago now. And I think the idea around it was that, you know, with the collapse of the Soviet Union, that, that history as we know it is over. Right, and so and so what now? And it was kind of this very mainstream economics, neoliberal take on things. And so with The End of Tourism, for me, and you know, the way I defined it, at the beginning was kind of like, in this kind of binary understanding, which, you know, maybe The End of Tourism could be the beginning of local people and tourists in over touristed places regenerating their local hospitality traditions that have largely been commodified and, you know, sold off as souvenirs and spectacle and things like that. That may be the or maybe The End of Tourism, you know, could be something like the world knowing nothing other than tourism. Right? And that kind of, like what and so this understanding of maybe tourism isn't just an industry, right? Maybe tourism is also a way of life, maybe tourism exists in places we don't consider to be touristed. 

Right, maybe tourism or a touristic way of viewing the world is a kind of deeply modern way of understanding a place. And, and the other or each other. That says that, you know, because of the economic and social mechanisms and dynamics that we live with, and under, that I don't have to, nor should I, nor can I even build community with the people in the place that I live in, or in the places that I'm going to, because they've already been set up as kind of like single serving entities, right. 

And, of course, you know, this, it's not just when you go to it's not just we're not just talking about people going to all-inclusive resorts and being served, you know, Pina Coladas all day long, or whatever. But to the extent that people who rent which is most people, and I think most people I know anyways, that they move to a new place, that maybe an apartment building, maybe a house. And their willingness to know their neighbor, to build community, to be a part of that community is dependent on their capacity to do it. Which is to say, their time, their energy, which, you know, these days, a lot of people don't have. And the understanding that, you know, if rent goes up next year, which it probably will, I'm not going to be able to afford this place, and I'm probably going to have to move and so why take the time, right? Why take the time, that precious little time that I have to just relax and rest.  So The End of History, this the secret unspoken declaration of The End of History was is that now because there's only one world order, which is the neoliberal kind of West or modern model, that maybe that's all we're gonna have for from now until forever. Right. And so that's kind of that was also one of the possibilities of playing with this idea, The End of Tourism. Maybe the world is going to look so as not to just appear but to be lived in such a touristic way that we wouldn't be able to tell the difference between the all-inclusive resort and and our home. And I like personally, I would say that I think that that's already happened. You know, there's, there's a degree of, you know, certainly tragedy and lament in there. And I think that that's important too, right? We don't need to sugarcoat the way that things are, it's just going to make things more difficult for us and for the people and for the young ones who might come after us.

Dr. Vincie Ho   
Well, thank you. Yeah. And, and so, what, what do you want to achieve with this podcast? Like, you know, now that you have produced five seasons, do you want to continue with it? Like, for as long as you can, and, and just like, really create space for more conversations, like bring in, as you said, like academics who, who have been working in silos or like, you know, not not necessarily having the means to make their research, like, accessible to the general public, to the locals? And, and so, is it like, is that one of your aims? Like, you know, to kind of provide that platform to, for it for these conversations to reach a larger public?

Chris Christou   
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I didn't think I'd probably have lasted this long when I started in 2020. I thought it would, you know, just be a little pet project. You know, a lot of people like pet pandemic projects, as they said,

Dr. Vincie Ho   
Well, the title definitely helped you want it to be provocative, and it definitely did that, I would say,

Chris Christou   
Yeah, and it's certainly like arose and a time, when certainly The End of Tourism or something like it seems to be upon us. And then, of course, it wasn't again, you know. And the more that these conversations happen, the more people asked me, you know, to do interviews, and seasons and episodes in Spanish, you know, friends here, in Oaxaca said, like, you know, my, my mother and my grandmother, like, they, they need to know this stuff, right? Because it's happening here. And they want to know, and, you know, could you please do something in Spanish? So, you know, we ended up doing the second season on Mexico and Spanish. And then, of course, like, in terms of my knowledge of these things, it's just expanded enormously where, you know, you can now you could basically do at least one season, if not more, in every region of the world. 

So yeah, but it's also morphed a little bit into this, this other understanding of like, maybe tourism isn't just an industry, right? Maybe there's something beyond this idea of it being an industry that deserves attention. So that's what the most recent season is about. You know, what if tourism begins at home, and why and how. So I don't know if I particularly, I don't think I have a goal in mind. I would love to focus on other projects, to be completely honest with you. Podcasting can be a lot of work, as I'm sure you know, as I'm sure you're about to find out. We'll find out. Yeah, and of course, it you know, generally doesn't pay very well. So I don't know, you know, necessarily what kind of goal outside of just asking, you know, unconsidered questions, questions that defy most attempts to try to answer them and, and to allow and to bring into, I guess, to some degree, the mainstream a willingness to ask those questions and to consider the unconsidered in terms of our earthly movements and travel.

Dr. Vincie Ho   
Consider the unconsidered. Thank you for putting it so beautifully. And please definitely continue because like the more you know, the more you want to know and I have learned at times, you know, through your podcast, so please continue to do that. But I would love to talk about your other products later on towards the end of the interview, but before we do so, let's take a deep dive into one of the tourism trends that is very present and visible in Oaxaca, Mexico, the place you call home now. I'm talking about Oaxaca being a digital nomad hotspot. Can you tell us what the situation is now? How big is the digital nomad population roughly in the city? What changes have you witnessed in the past few years, especially since COVID. Has COVID fueled the explosion of digital nomads, of remote workers like coming into the city?

Chris Christou   
Yeah, such a huge, huge topic. Of course, it's not beholden only to Oaxaca, you know, countless, countless cities and in places around the world. I don't have any numbers for that, unfortunately, there are no statistics at the moment. This is generally something that is, of course, very difficult. People may come, you know, for, maybe they want to come for six months, you know, that's generally the maximum that tourist visa and things like that some people will want to come longer try to get a temporary residency or things like that. But generally, because six months in Mexico, at least for American and Canadian citizens is the maximum, you would see and you do see this high turnover. Right. So in that regard, it's very difficult to gauge, ya know. Someone during the first years of the pandemic, a friend or an acquaintance had made me, an administrator of one of the local expat groups on Facebook. And in 2020, there will be something like 5000 people, I imagine mostly expats in that group. And you know, I guess, three years later, now, 4, 3 1/2 and a half years later, there's at least 16,000, maybe, maybe 20. Right. 

And so what I saw, and I think what most people here saw, was that we had a very short time of, quote, unquote, locked down here in Oaxaca. Mexico was one of the only countries in the world not to put restrictions on travel, for people, of course, coming in, but there was there was a few months where the streets were suddenly empty. And people left their house, basically only for groceries. And that was, that was an incredible moment. You know, I think it's really important for the people who are watching and the people who are listening to understand that this is one of the questions that I asked almost everyone in the social movements in over-touristed cities is, what happened, what was it like for you and your people during that time, during lockdown time? And almost across the board, they say it was beautiful, you know, despite the fact that, you know, this virus was killing people en masse. 

Because they had the opportunity suddenly to walk down their own streets without, you know, people just taking photos, like clicking, clicking, like flashing, you know, or, you know, the tourist buses, and then the horns and everything else anyway, so. So that's what that's what it was. And then, you know, it wasn't long, it didn't take long. I think it was probably around September 2020. That people started, essentially in the Global North and the United States and Canada, and certainly Europe as well. But certainly, more than anything the United States. People began to go stir crazy, right? And they wanted to be anywhere but at home, they wanted to, you know, the lockdowns, the politics, all of that stuff. And of course, during that time, people who regularly travel or vacation, that's where their minds went, right? They went elsewhere, they went to Where can I go? How can I get there, etc, etc. And if so, of course, Mexico was one of those places. 

And so we saw this, this, you know, for lack of a better word, invasion, in part because, and I don't say that lightly either, right. I mean, people throw words around quite a bit. But it was basically, you know, people coming here from the global north, from the United States, Canada and Europe, of course, other places, but mostly those. And often refusing to wear a mask because there were no mask mandates. So you could see very clearly this in the street, who was a local and who wasn't. And I'm not just talking about people who are born here. I'm also talking about the local expats who had spent years and sometimes decades here because the people came in order so that they didn't have to do what they owed their neighbors back home. And in doing so, they risked the lives of the people in the place that they came to, right. And so they created a massive kind of backlash. And that's still ongoing. But it's kind of getting away from your question. You know, so some people were coming just to get away. And then what you also saw was these waves of digital nomads in part because suddenly, again, because of the kind of fallout of the pandemic, suddenly, so many people could work from home or work remotely. And so they became these quote unquote, digital nomads, which I should say is really, you know, we should find a better term because it does a huge, I think, disrespectful to people who live their lives, you know, traditional peoples in a properly nomadic way. And it's actually, yeah, and what it does is it, it kind of blinds us to how those people are, how their nomadism actually serves the places that they live in. Because this isn't what that is. Our, our willingness to go to a place, you know, for six months, and work. I understand, like I understand, right, it's like, you know, the cost of living skyrocketed pretty much everywhere, as a result of the pandemic, right? You can work from home, okay, great. I don't have to commute two hours every day anymore, right? And why would I pay this exorbitant rent? When I can pay like a fraction of that somewhere else? I get it, right. Like, I know what category I fall into, in a lot of these conversations. And so and so yeah, you see, seen we've seen over the last few years, this explosion in digital nomadism. And what it's done here, as it's done, most places post-pandemic, of course, you know, Bali and southern Europe, these places that were already very over-touristed, but other places like Oaxaca, or Mexico City or Medellin, Colombia.

Dr. Vincie Ho   
Yeah.

Chris Christou   
You've seen this explosion in visitors and digital nomads. And it's contributed massively to the explosion in gentrification, yes, places. Which isn't just, you know, cupcake shops, or like hamburger, like fancy hamburger restaurants, in the middle of, you know, colonial Mexico like Oaxaca City or something like that. But like, also the rise, the extreme rise in rents, here, you know, in those two or three years. Like, you know, now, my friends who have been here for 10 years or more, the people, the locals that I know, nobody that we know, lives in the center, in the historic center downtown of the city anymore. In one or two years, right. It's just, and basically, because, you know, platform capitalism, so much of the rentals have become short term Airbnbs, forcing people, local people, into the peripheries of the city, and generally undoing any sense of community that still existed in those neighborhoods. 

So, you know, I think, on one level, it's totally understandable why digital nomads would travel, why remote workers would go. But the thing is, that, you know, their reasons for leaving reassert themselves in the places they go to. This old adage that like, you know, travelers, tourists bring their baggage with them. But they don't just they don't just take it with them when they leave. It's, it's there and it's almost permanent, right, to some degree. So, and this is, you know, similar to what I was saying a little bit earlier, just that even if you have, you know, three months, six months in a place as a digital nomad, it's like, how can you have any degree of understanding of what your consequences in a place is once you leave? 

I mean, I don't know if there's an answer that can serve that want and willingness to go. So, you know, it's not saying don't go. It's saying that well, maybe there are people like yourself, who have gone and done this before, right who have been digital nomads, been remote workers in other places, and it's not just in the last few years. Maybe there's something that they know that you don't? I don't know. I don't know. But you know, so it's not just “Don't go.” Right. It's like, how can we understand ourselves as people of consequence? Right? 

Dr. Vincie Ho   
Yeah, absolutely. I totally agree with you. And I think this conversation is so important. For anyone who is right now, like living a digital nomad lifestyle, or like, who are considering, you know, experiencing the digital nomad life. Just really think about the consequences and have consideration for the local community. And think about what we're trying to escape. And, we actually, like, you know, bringing or imposing things like, on to another community if we're escaping, if rents at home have skyrocketed, and we're escaping that, and we're actually making rents unaffordable at the places that we're going to. And what we could do is just leave after three months, and what about the locals, they will have to live with the consequences forever, after we've left. So yeah, absolutely. And that leads to my next question, you, you basically, like answered some of those. But what I'm thinking is, do you have, let's say, if someone comes to you, knowing that you've lived in Oaxaca for so long, and wants advice from you and say, I want to come live in Oaxaca for six months? What is some advice that you would give them, or questions that you would ask them to think about? 

Chris Christou   
Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, I think I think I almost immediately run out of answers. It's not that I run out of them, I think I just don't have them. But I think, you know, generally speaking, you know, based on the, you know, the people that I've spoken to here based on, you know, the vast amounts of people that I've spoken to around the world, in this context, who are kind of on the receiving end of overtourism, and all of the kind of catastrophes that brings with it. You know, it's, it can it can be as simple as, you know, do your research, right, like, not just on the history of the place, and the civilizations or the cultures that live there, and how, you know, the dances and the food, but like, the social movements, yes. Find out about the resistance in those places to you know, the the infrastructures, the economies, the extractive economies that are, you know, affecting everyone everywhere. I mean, there's very few people, sadly left on this planet who live outside of these things, these dilemmas. And so yeah, of course, you know, do your research, get in touch with local, social movements before you come and ask them, you know, maybe like, you'd be willing to participate in some manner in something that really needs to be done in that place. Right, like, whatever it might be. Maybe it's like, helping to organize community. I mean, if it's in a different language, you can do that then then great, right, but maybe it's you know, smaller act, you know, with the environment, environmental issue issues, water, garbage, etc. And, and ask those people if you're actually needed there. Yeah. Like, yeah, try to do your best to undermine the entitlement that says, You deserve to be there. Right. And I don't say this lightly either, because, you know, this is something that I I have had to consider and deal with my entire time here. Right? And, yeah, and all of that. So, and all of the, you know, considerations and all that that comes with it. 

So there's kind of, you know, the people that I've interviewed in those places, it definitely runs the gamut of like, yeah, like, we are not anti-foreigner, right, we are not anti-traveler, we might be anti tourism, like, we don't want you to come and just participate in the spectacle, and the gentrification, without knowing it, really, we want you to come and, and, and, and be a guest in a way that allows us to practice and regenerate our local forms of hospitality, which are not, you know, this kind of standardized hotel version of industrial hospitality. From that, all the way to, you know, places like Hawaii where, you know, if you want to build solidarity with the people here, don't come? Yeah, just don't come. Right. 

And, and, you know, so I think it's, it's really, really important, before you even consider booking a flight or anything, asking yourself if you're needed there, right. And, of course, like my, my own personal kind of, I guess, bias or prejudice goes towards something like, ask yourself, where ask yourself where you're needed? Yeah, and maybe, before you need to ask someone else. And then maybe, you know, there might be, things might start to open up a little bit in terms of like, I don't know how, how you might be a good guest when you show up, right? Because if it's the case that you're needed in your place more than you are there. And maybe your way of being needed there. And your way of honoring that need makes you one of the first people that they want to invite. Right? I don't know. 

Dr. Vincie Ho   
I absolutely love this advice. Such invaluable advice for anyone who doesn't necessarily consider working remotely in another country. But just basically like before we pack our bags and travel, but it's the same thing. Like we often times like people don't think about whether the places we travel to want tourism or want us to be there. And so I yeah, I think he's just like, really pointed out a very important point. And, and you also talked about, when you talk about doing research, everybody would ask people to like do your research before you go to a place. And as you said, like, what you said really resonates a lot with me personally and with our organization. That is, we don't only encourage people to look up, like the history and culture of a place, but also what is going on there. Like what are some political, like economic and environmental issues that, you know, the residents are facing, currently. And, you know, what, what are some stories of resilience? And, you know, what are some projects that the communities are leading? And how can we contribute if we are traveling to those places? So I think that is super important. And that kind of information is essential, and so crucial for us to be able to even justify our, you know, our presence in a place like, as you said, if a place doesn't need us, we shouldn't be going. 

So I, I think, that completely reframe the way we see travel because mainly, like mainstream, the mainstream understanding of travel is very egocentric, very euro centric. It's all about, you know, what, what do I get out of this experience? You know, when I consider going to Oaxaca, the first thing that I look up, you know, if I want to work remotely there, what's the speed of how the speed of the Internet looks like? All these questions that digital nomads would have, like, you know, how many months can I can I stay there? You know, how much money can I say in terms of rent, and what is the cost of living, they're not really understanding that by being there, they're going to change all these parameters, all these like things, cost of living and social fabric of the place, that are going to be permanently altered. So I really appreciate what you just said and that's one very important piece of advice. Thank you. Yeah.

Chris Christou   
I mean, just before we move on, I should mention that like, you know, these conversations are ongoing in, in tourist destinations, right. And, you know, in places that have been undone by being called tourist destinations. And like, not nobody, but not everyone agrees on these things, right? There's a lot of people in these places that say, yes, absolutely, like, bring tourism, we need more tourism. And there's a lot of people who say like, I mean, look around you, it doesn't seem to be working, you know, like, it works to the extent that, you know, we keep the rat race going. And so I think it's important that people understand that it's an extremely nuanced conversation, even among local people. And, and, yeah, and so that research, that consternation, or willingness to kind of take on, should I go or not? What if, what if that wasn't just like a single conversation? What if that was, you know, many conversations with people in your home, people in the place you want to go to? What if that research took months or even years? Right, it's so easy for us to buy a plane ticket. But when we start to, I think, imagine what truly sustainable travel could look like. And I'm going into, like, you know, speculative fiction and fabulation worlds here. But you know, something truly sustainable might include, like you only being able to travel once or twice in your life. And what if that meant not taking a plane or not being able to take a plane? And I, you know, there's a degree of… I say this, because we have to be able to imagine different worlds. And we have to be able to imagine worlds that don't look anything like the ones that we inhabit. And to fall in love with that imagination and the capacity to, you know, imagine things differently. And what do I mean to be an honorable guest? Right? Outside of just being able to pay someone enough money, so that for whatever reason. 

Dr. Vincie Ho   
Yeah, all very important points, that I know that on your podcast, there have been conversations about degrowth, about like traveling locally, about like, what does it mean, by traveling? You know, like, staying home as a form of travel, and, you know, all these new concepts, and I really appreciate that you ran a season in… one season or two seasons in Spanish?

Chris Christou   
One. There’s another one coming, but yeah.

Dr. Vincie Ho   
Awesome. And as you said, like, you know, you want to include like, more locals into the conversation. And also, as you said, locals may not necessarily have the same understanding, or may not be informed enough to, to actually see the consequences. Because they have to, because they need to prioritize economic benefits, or like, what they believe that, that they're getting, right. Not understanding tourism leakage or anything, any of those concepts. So it is really important that you are doing that. So thank you. 

And actually, the next topic, which is probably the last topic of the conversation, because like we can go on and on. We can talk about things for days. So you mentioned a little bit briefly just now about the idea of radical hospitality. Right. So it's kind of related to the pretty extractive and neocolonial trend of digital nomadism. And, and you advocate for radical hospitality a completely different way of looking at or doing hospitality. Could you please unpack this concept for our listeners, and what exactly does it mean to be colonized hospitality? What does it mean to be respectful and worthy guest, and what role should the host play?

Chris Christou   
Wow, okay. So that's a lot, a lot of really great questions. I'll start with radical hospitality. I guess. It's something that I like to leave, personally for me, undefined. Although like there are many definitions of it. And I think, generally speaking, the term was coined within theology, and I think liberation theology, if I'm not mistaken, interreligious studies. So it does have this kind of, you know, to some degree anyways, Christian or theological kind of basis historically. But if we look at the words, you know, radical means a lot of things. I think we grew up with a kind of strange version of it, but you know, the roots of the word, the etymology of the word means rooted, be rooted, right and so rooted hospitality. And I think, to a large degree, for me what that means hospitality is essentially the relationship between the guest and the host. It doesn't mean they're automatically guests and hosts to begin with. But how that relationship is formed, why it's formed, where it's formed, when it's formed. And that's, that's where the rooted part comes in. 

So, you know, I also spent most of my 20s, when I wasn't traveling, working in the quote, unquote, hospitality industry. In hotels, and restaurants, and bars, and catering events, and all that. And basically, especially in the hotels, and catering, we had to do the same thing, the same way, all the time. And I remember working for, you know, a couple of big hotel chains. And basically, it didn't matter where you went in the world, they did everything the same way. Because the understanding was such as that we want our clients to, quote unquote, feel at home, when they come here. And it's felt like, you're it's not, they're not actually feeling at home. They're creating a sense of home within that brand, or industry, that replaces home. Right, because you're not at home. Right. 

So, so radical hospitality is this notion that it's first of all local in nature, which means that it can't be outsourced. It can't be standardized, or homogenized. Because, you know, for example, here in Oaxaca, like, there's this kind of like, I mean, it's not a joke, it's a reality. But it's a little bit of a joke that like all the women, the chefs, you know, of the households in Oaxaca, even if then within the same village, they all have a different version of the local of the, they all have a different recipe of the local dish, right of their villages, like, like local dish, or dishes. Every single family has a different recipe, and the women will go to their deaths, to prove that and to say that and just to make sure that it's understood, right. And that for me, it's like one tiny little instance of radical hospitality that even within a tiny village, everyone's got their own version, and everyone is respected for that. And it's not like, No, we're going to do the same way. 

So I think, radical hospitality and that understanding is something not only that can't be outsourced or commodified, or standardized. But it's something that subverts the industrial hospitality, right, or the hospitality industry, it's saying you cannot get this anywhere else. And it's not just a way of relating to, for example, someone who might sell you a plate of mole, right? Or tejate, they are a particular food, or even clothing. But how we are with each other. Right? I think that that's really at the heart of radical hospitality is how can I be with the other in a way that accepts them a priori before you've met them, and then also takes them at their word, without kind of applying a kind of prejudicial reductionism that says that, well, because they remind me of that person I hate, I'm not going to talk to them or because they voted for this person, you know, they're not on my level or whatever. Right? 

Because all of those ways of thinking, the ways that we've been taught to understand the other, cultural other, the neighbor, the stranger, etc. are all ways to just try to make sure that they're either on our side or not. Right? It proceeds from a level of distrust, right? That's the foundation, is distrust. And, you know, I think well, of course, what that does is it produces enemies and enmity, right, that is the nature of being in opposition or in an aggressive opposition to someone else. And you know, just thinking about this the other day is that I think for me the nature of solidarity is to undermine, and, and subvert in its entirety, enmity, right. It's not to say that we're going to find a way to be exactly the same, it's a way to try to honor and celebrate our differences as a great Canadian one said, not in spite of our differences, but because of them. Right. 

And I think that that's what tourism destroys essentially, what the industry destroys, because it creates this infrastructure, wherein everything either has to be or should be the same everywhere. And for the people who don't want that, we're gonna give you this, right, which is not the same, but it's still made for this kind of single serving experience. Right, that doesn't actually deepen our relationality. And our way of being in the right relation with the world and with, with other cultures and with ourselves and with our neighbors, right. So that was just the radical hospitality part. And so I think, you know, these questions are like, what does it mean to be a good guest and a good host? These are things we can ask ourselves, in the places we live in. Right? And if you don't, if you're like, wait, what? Why am I a host? Or why am I a guest, then maybe wonder how you could be, and how, maybe our ancestors, all of our ancestors might have understood themselves in that way. And not just the citizens, not just as taxpayers, not just as, you know, travelers or, you know, whatever demographic, you want to slap on someone, you know, identity or whatever. But guests and hosts. And, of course, there's just, you know, so much more that that could be said, but I don't want to, yeah.

Dr. Vincie Ho   
I love the way you deconstruct the, the common understanding of what being a host and being a guest mean, and just like, thank you, for all the all these words of wisdom. Make people think more about the relationality, you know, the, as you said, what kind of what kind of unique and meaningful relationship do we want to establish to create, with, with the communities where we live in and where the communities where we go to or travel to? And so, um, all right, wow, like time flies, an hour already? Yeah. So there's just so many other topics of interest that we both share, again, that we can, you know, go on and on. But I just really wanted to make sure that you have a little bit of time to share any projects you talked about earlier on about not wanting to prioritize the podcast at some point and focus on things like your other projects. So would you like to share with our listeners, like any projects that you're working on currently? Or maybe if you want to talk a little bit more about what Oaxaca Profundo, or any tourism initiatives or writing projects that you wish to introduce to all listeners?

Chris Christou   
Yeah. Well, I guess before I do, I just say thank you so much Vincie, for the time, and the really incredible questions. I'm really grateful for the opportunity, and also for the work that RISE is doing. I definitely feel a lot of solidarity between and sentiment, shared sentiment between what I do and what, you know, The End of Tourism and RISE. So I really appreciate it.

Dr. Vincie Ho   
Well, Likewise, likewise, it's such an honor to be here as a guest. Like to kick off the new season. I am very honored. And yeah, so like, Would you like to share a little bit about your project before we wrap up?

Chris Christou   
Sure, sure. Yeah. So Oaxaca Profundo was kind of like this, like, tour company that I started in 2016. And it was like, I got to Oaxaca, I was like, I need to make money somehow. Okay, so I'll start working in tourism. I started doing this, you know, kind of chocolate tour and I just hated it. I really hated it. I was like, wow, this is what it's like to be on the other side. And so I started to be like, okay, so if this is if this is going to be something you're going to do, why not make it so good that you would actually want to go on it? You would actually want to experience this yourself. And then with that, there was also this understanding, okay, but like, this is still within the tourism infrastructure, it's nearly impossible to get outside of that, to some degree within the context of, you know, giving tours or anything. And so with, you know, a few few local friends, we began wondering about, okay, so how can we actually use these opportunities, and the themes within these sessions, which later became kind of storytelling sessions, to, to undermine all of these, the assumptions, right, the entitlement that tourism brings with it. And we, I think we've been really successful in that regard. 

And so now, we tend to focus more on student groups from different universities, in the Global North and, and Mexico as well. So that there's this, you know, longer term learning, you know, weeks as opposed to hours. And within that time, try to, you know, really plant and water as many seeds as we can, so that when people go home, young people, and sometimes older people as well, when they go home, they have, you know, maybe they have the seeds, but maybe they also have the will the want and the water to plant those, those seeds in their homes, right? In the places that they come from, and do the work that needs to be done in the places that they come from. So that's what it's kind of become. 

It's definitely this very kind of difficult dynamic, because it still exists within a tourism infrastructure. Right. And at some point, I think that while this works, it's like, getting 20 people on a plane, or two planes, or three planes, or four planes, you know, at some point, like that might not be sustainable anymore. So yeah, so I don't know. But apart from that, I've been working on personal storytelling as well as writing. I do a lot of writing now essays, mostly working on fiction as well. And people can find my my writing, published and otherwise at Chrischristou.substack.com, and TheEndofTourism.com, for those who'd like to listen, and of course, I'm very much open and welcome any commentary or feedback that anyone or or potential guests, so.

Dr. Vincie Ho   
Thank you, I would strongly encourage anyone who is currently listening to this podcast, to really check out Chris’s work, the podcast is amazing. And I like you're going to learn and get the tools to really help you deconstruct some of some of the mainstream and colonial thinking that we inherited from, from our world and from our history. 

One last thing. At RISE Travel Institute, we're currently working on a decolonizing travel ebook for travelers. And by the time that this episode goes live, maybe an ebook will have been published. And Chris has kindly contributed a quote to the project. And I'd like to ask you the same question again. It doesn't have to be exactly the same. What does decolonizing travel mean to you?

Chris Christou   
Yeah, in a sentence, in three sentences, that's that's difficult. But I think decolonising travel is certainly a lot of things. I think we have to be very, very concise, precise and careful about words like that, concepts that can be easily misunderstood, we’ll say and even appropriated for reasons that, you know, are not intended, I guess. But I think perhaps to decolonize travel includes ways of understanding our our moving bodies, our moving cultures, our understandings of travel that are not that are not solely based around us, that are based around how we got here, you know. And I'm talking about ancestrally, as well, talking about migration, talking about exile and, and all of that, of course. And so I don't think there's any kind of silver bullet solution, or answer within the possibilities of decolonizing travel. Which I think is important, too, it's to say that whatever work that we undertake, to properly court and coax new and more beautiful and rooted and healthy worlds, towards us is not going to be finished within our lifetimes. This is the work of generations. And, and so with a little bit of humility, right, that we're not going to get everything done. Probably not, anyways, in our lifetimes. And with a degree of, I think, you know, Nick Montgomery, and I can't remember the other author's name. He put out a book some years ago called Joyful Militancy. And I think it's really important that the way we proceed with travel, not just as a concept, but in our own travels, has a way of rooting itself in, in our home, right, like, how we are with the foreigner, how we are abroad, reflects how we are at home. 

And so, you know, there's so many possibilities and ways of dreaming, different ways of travel that aren't hitched or bound to tourism. But it takes work and it would properly take work, right? What would it mean, to walk to the destination? Or the place that you want to visit? Right? And how would you do that? And how difficult would it be right? And not just like, economically speaking, right? Not just time. But how might that difficulty actually serve the world or worlds within, you might want to live in? Or the people that you're going to visit, that they might want to live in? Right? So maybe in a nutshell, it's it's, it has something to do with understanding how we got to where we are today, in terms of all of our movements, personal, cultural, etc. And, and allowing those histories to have a voice in, in how we, and how we move, and how we are with the other? And how we might be? Yeah, so that's all to say, like, I don't have an answer. And that's just because I don't personally want there to be a single answer to that. Right. And I don't think there should be.

Dr. Vincie Ho   
Yeah, that is so important to point out and which is why we've collected a number of quotes from like-minded, you know, experts and activists and scholars like yourself, who contribute to the project. So we're very grateful for you. 

And so yeah, thank you so much, Chris, for speaking with me today. And this brings us to the end of our journey today. And if you liked what you've heard, and would like to hear more, please subscribe, like and comment. You can follow us at RISE Travel Institute on Facebook and Instagram. Here at RISE Travel Institute, we believe that travel could be a powerful tool for positive, transformative change for communities, if travel is welcome. If you are a college student planning on a study abroad trip or professional thinking about that gap year or sabbatical, or anyone who's currently traveling the world and wants to understand more like what, what, how you can travel in a sustainable way, we do encourage you to head to risetravelinstitute.org for more information for our educational courses. So we'll be back soon with another episode. Until then keep roaming, keep learning and continue to be a RISE Traveler. Thank you.

Chris Christou   
Thank you, Vincie.

Dr. Vincie Ho   
Thank you, Chris.

Outro
That brings us to the end of our journey today. If you liked what you heard and would like to hear more please subscribe, like, and comment. You can follow us at @risetravelinstitute on Facebook and Instagram.

Here at RISE Travel Institute, we believe conscious travel can help us create a more just and equitable world. If you are a college student planning a study abroad trip, a tourism professional who wants to create a more equitable and inclusive industry, or anyone who is currently traveling the world and wants to understand how to travel in a just and sustainable way, we do encourage you to head to RISETravelInstitute.org for more information on our educational programs.

We will be back soon with another episode. Until then, keep roaming, keep learning, and continue to be a RISE Traveler.